The Promise of Baptism in the Holy Spirit

[JB Horn]

We have two instances in the Bible where believers were not baptized by the Holy Spirit and therefore their belief was invalid. In acts 8:9-25, we read the story of Simon the magician. The Bible tells us Simon did believe however he had not been baptized by the Holy Spirit and was not truly saved. Simon's belief was so strong that he actually fooled Philip. The other story was also from acts 19:1-7, where some disciples believed and experience the baptism of John the Baptist however they had never heard of the Holy Ghost. Now their are baptism of the Holy Ghost came with the laying on of hands from Paul, unlike those that received the Holy Ghost at Pentecost.

Both John the Baptist and Jesus made the promise of baptism of the Holy Ghost, but it is obvious that some can believe and still not receive the promise of that baptism. And if one does not receive that baptism is belief is not valid. At first look of this it appears confusing but when you consider that Satan himself believes as do all the fallen Angels by his side, it begins to make more sense.

Some of you are probably asking right now how can one know if he has received the Holy Spirit if someone that believes can be without the Holy Spirit.

If you look at the two instances where those that were described as believers were without the Spirit you see that they were either not aware of the existence of the Holy Ghost, or did not believe in the existence of the Holy Ghost. This is in-line with what both Jesus and Paul passed down to us:(John 14:17 ; Rom. 8:14) So I think this is really a moot question or an unneeded concern to those who believe in the Trinity and baptism in the name of the Father the Son and Holy Ghost.

Ask yourself this question would Christ promise something to those who believe in him and love him and seek his guidance and then not deliver on that promise?

JB

[Chris]

We have two instances in the Bible where believers were not baptized by the Holy Spirit and therefore their belief was invalid. In acts 8:9-25, we read the story of Simon the magician. The Bible tells us Simon did believe however he had not been baptized by the Holy Spirit and was not truly saved. Simon's belief was so strong that he actually fooled Philip. The other story was also from acts 19:1-7, where some disciples believed and experience the baptism of John the Baptist however they had never heard of the Holy Ghost. Now their are baptism of the Holy Ghost came with the laying on of hands from Paul, unlike those that received the Holy Ghost at Pentecost.

Both John the Baptist and Jesus made the promise of baptism of the Holy Ghost, but it is obvious that some can believe and still not receive the promise of that baptism. And if one does not receive that baptism is belief is not valid. At first look of this it appears confusing but when you consider that Satan himself believes as do all the fallen Angels by his side, it begins to make more sense.

Some of you are probably asking right now how can one know if he has received the Holy Spirit if someone that believes can be without the Holy Spirit.

If you look at the two instances where those that were described as believers were without the Spirit you see that they were either not aware of the existence of the Holy Ghost, or did not believe in the existence of the Holy Ghost. This is in-line with what both Jesus and Paul passed down to us:(John 14:17 ; Rom. 8:14) So I think this is really a moot question or an unneeded concern to those who believe in the Trinity and baptism in the name of the Father the Son and Holy Ghost.

Ask yourself this question would Christ promise something to those who believe in him and love him and seek his guidance and then not deliver on that promise?

JB

Hi J.B.
How was Philip fooled by Simon?

IC
C.J.

[JB Horn]

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized , he continued with Philip, and wondered , beholding the miracles and signs which were done .

I submit that Philip would not have baptized one who he knew did not believe in the Holy Ghost.

JB

[Chris]

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized , he continued with Philip, and wondered , beholding the miracles and signs which were done .

I submit that Philip would not have baptized one who he knew did not believe in the Holy Ghost.

JB

So what was it that Simon believed in?

Simon Believed

Then Simon himself believed also

CJ

[JB Horn]

If you read acts 8 I think you will answer your own question.

It appears obvious that Simon believed in the miracles of Philip, he saw that they were real. Problem Simon had was his own miracles were tricks, faults nothing but deception.

So tell me Chris what do you think the Sorcerer (trickster) Satan believes.

JB

[Chris]

If you read acts 8 I think you will answer your own question.

It appears obvious that Simon believed in the miracles of Philip, he saw that they were real. Problem Simon had was his own miracles were tricks, faults nothing but deception.

So tell me Chris what do you think the Sorcerer (trickster) Satan believes.

JB

Hi J.B.,
I'm really more interested in your post than what Satan believes.

There's no doubt that Simon used tricks in order to awe the people but where in Acts 8 do you find that he rejected or did not believe in the Holy Spirit?

First and foremost only Peter held the keys to the gates that would begin the ministry of the Holy Spirit upon the Church, this is why Peter was summoned to Samaria:

Acts 8:14-15

14 Now when the apostles that were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

 15 who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit:

All Simon wanted was the same gift, to be able to deliver the Holy Spirit to believers.  Only Peter had the true authority to the first three churches to bring upon the baptism of the Holy Spirit following Pentecost.

Matthew 16:18-19

Keys of The Kingdom

18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
 19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Simon's attempt to purchase that power was just ill-willed but scripture clearly states that he did believe in Jesus Christ's life, death & resurrection.

When he tried to purchase it he was also told to repent Acts 8:22.

Request to Repent

Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray the Lord, if perhaps the thought of thy heart shall be forgiven thee.

Peter left it up to God to pass judgment on Simon and offered him a chance to repent.  Simon replies by requesting that Peter and John pray for his salvation.

Acts 8:24

Simon asks for prayer

And Simon answered and said, Pray ye for me to the Lord, that none of the things which ye have spoken come upon me.

So I fail to see where your exegesis leads to Simon's unbelief in the Holy Spirit.  Maybe prior to Phillips arrival but clearly after he witnesses Phillips miracles he does believe.

I.C.
CJ

[JB Horn]

Hello Chris,

There's no doubt that Simon used tricks in order to awe the people but where in Acts 8 do you find that he rejected or did not believe in the Holy Spirit?

If he believed in the Holy Spirit as God the Father of Jesus, would he pay money to have the right to control Him?

First and foremost only Peter held the keys to the gates that would begin the ministry of the Holy Spirit upon the Church, this is why Peter was summoned to Samaria: All Simon wanted was the same gift, to be able to deliver the Holy Spirit to believers.  Only Peter had the true authority to the first three churches to bring upon the baptism of the Holy Spirit following Pentecost.

I disagree, a key alludes to there being a lock that only the person having the key can open. If that was the case the lock was open at Pentecost and not relocked. If you're right who holds the keys now?

Simon's attempt to purchase that power was just ill-willed but scripture clearly states that he did believe in Jesus Christ's life, death & resurrection.

If that was all Simon wanted where is the sin or the "ill-will?" He wanted to buy the trick.

Peter left it up to God to pass judgment on Simon and offered him a chance to repent.

I sure hope that Peter would not pass judgement on another mans heart.

Simon replies by requesting that Peter and John pray for his salvation.

Are you saying that Simon was not saved or that he lost his salvation because he wanted to help others receive the Holy Ghost?

but scripture clearly states that he did believe in Jesus Christ's life, death & resurrection. So I fail to see where your exegesis leads to Simon's unbelief in the Holy Spirit.  Maybe prior to Phillips arrival but clearly after he witnesses Phillips miracles he does believe.

Like I said and you refuse to discuss, Satan believes the same. But Satan believes to this day that he stronger and more powerful that Christ. I don't think he believes that Christ, the Spirit and God are one and either did Simon, or why would he try to buy control of Him. This also shows that Simon did not believe in salvation was by the Grace Of God by Faith but by works of man.



JB

[Chris]

Hello Chris,
If he believed in the Holy Spirit as God the Father of Jesus, would he pay money to have the right to control Him?

Hey J.B.,
It's not I that says Simon believed but scripture says that he believed, are you willing to deny what the scripture says? (be fair and stick to scripture).

Simon Believed (Acts 8:13

Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

I disagree, a key alludes to there being a lock that only the person having the key can open. If that was the case the lock was open at Pentecost and not relocked. If you're right who holds the keys now?

Well you can disagree but Christ was quite clear in Mathew 16:19(a).

Keys to the Kingdom

19I will give you (Peter) the keys of the kingdom of heaven;

This is the origin of all those jokes and animations of St. Peter standing at the pearly gates of heaven deciding who went to heaven and who went to hell.  We all know that Peter does not have this authority and that only belief in Christ and ultimately by His authority will one enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Peter opened three doors to the Kingdom by which Christ gave him those keys as spoken of in Matthew 16:19.  The first to receive the Holy Spirit following Peter's baptism were the Jews in Acts 2, where Peter preached for the first time following Pentecost and from that day forward spirit Baptism was made available to the Jews.  

The second time was in Acts 8:14-18 as Peter was summoned to Samaria where he and John performed the Laying of hands on the people of Samaria.

Prayer & Laying of Hands

14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

The third time was in Caesarea at Cornelius' house Acts 10:44-48.  Peter opened the final door to the Gentiles.

Gentiles Baptized

44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

   Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

With Peter's accomplishment the ministry of the Holy Spirit is now in effect and it is the Holy Spirit which baptizes the believer at the moment one believes in Christ 1 Corinthians 12:13.  I sometimes wonder if in itself it contains a greater mystery as the three doors opened to the Kingdom also reflect the Tri-Unity of God.

Father, Son, & Holy Spirit.

18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money
If that was all Simon wanted where is the sin or the "ill-will?" He wanted to buy the trick.

Simon was obviously in error by thinking he could buy the authority to baptize with the Holy Spirit but Acts 8:19 also shows that his goal was to help those who needed to be baptized because it had already been made known in verse 13 that he believed on His name.  So all he was truly guilty of was not understanding his own heart.

Acts 8:21

Misguided Heart

You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God.

I sure hope that Peter would not pass judgment on another mans heart.

That was the reason why Peter told him to repent because it wasn't his decision to make. (was this question even necessary?
)

Are you saying that Simon was not saved or that he lost his salvation because he wanted to help others receive the Holy Ghost?

Clearly he was still not of a repentant heart until Peter warned him of his bitterness and captive to sin to which he repented by asking them to pray for him.

Like I said and you refuse to discuss, Satan believes the same. But Satan believes to this day that he stronger and more powerful that Christ. I don't think he believes that Christ, the Spirit and God are one and either did Simon, or why would he try to buy control of Him. This also shows that Simon did not believe in salvation was by the Grace Of God by Faith but by works of man.

JB

My point in refusing to discuss Satan,
You started the topic, I read the e-mail and disagreed with your post.  I will not engage you in a discussion of fantasy over what Satan may or may not be thinking as it is not ours to know nor do I think their is a doctrinal basis in Acts 8 for it.  Sin is not "The Devil Made Me Do It!" it is man's nature to sin, Satan just helps make that path a little more tempting.

Where does it say that he wanted to control the Holy Spirit in Acts 8...or is that just an assumption?

I.C.
CJ

[JB Horn]

I'm going to discuss your post in reverse order Chris.

Where does it say that he wanted to control the Holy Spirit in Acts 8...or is that just an assumption?

19 Saying , Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
I take it that it reads different in your Bible Chris

My point in refusing to discuss Satan,
You started the topic, I read the e-mail and disagreed with your post.  I will not engage you in a discussion of fantasy over what Satan may or may not be thinking as it is not ours to know nor do I think their is a doctrinal basis in Acts 8 for it.  Sin is not "The Devil Made Me Do It!" it is man's nature to sin, Satan just helps make that path a little more tempting.

First of all I inserted the question of Satan in my post to be discussed. Second, if you think that the discussion of Satan's belief is fantasy do you also believe that the Scriptures that address this are fantasy? And whoever said that this discussion would lead to" the Devil made me do it", as you put it?

1) What Satan believes is discussed in both the Old and New Testament. The book of Job we find but the devil acknowledges that he does not have authority or power over those who God protects.
2) Yet in matthew 4 we find Satan confronting Jesus not as God but only as another created being. Satan honestly believes Jesus to be the Messiah but fails to believe or understand that Christ was in fact God. If Satan would have known that he was tempting God he would've known that he could not succeed. Again I refer you back to Job.
3) The real proof that Satan's belief did not include the belief in the Trinity is evident in the fact that Satan entered Judas with the conspiracy to have Christ put to death. Satan knows that no cross, no nail nor spear could bring death to God, yet he thought he could kill Christ.

I hope that I'm wrong but it appears that you believe Peter was given the authority to baptize with the Holy Ghost. This of course would be contrary to the teachings of John the Baptist. As you would obviously know the laying on of hands is a Jewish custom used to depart knowledge from one to the other.

Mathew 16:19

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

You are misinformed concerning the keys to God's kingdom being the ability to baptize with the Holy Spirit. The New Testament is clear that the keys to the kingdom of God is the Gospel taught by Christ. This is the key that was given to Peter that he passed on to his disciples and to those that Simon witnessed when Peter laid his hands upon. The Gospel is the sword of the Holy Ghost (ephesians 6:17), it convicts, teaches, and effectively calls the elect. (john 6)
In Acts 2 there was no laying on of hands and there was no need to teach those present of the Gospel. Those who receive the Holy Ghost in acts 2 had already received the Gospel.
In Acts 10:41-48 again there was no laying on of hands and a Holy Ghost was administered solely from hearing the gospel from Peter.
In Acts 9 did Paul also have the KEYS to the Kingdom? He did have the knowledge of the Gospel and he departed that and to those that were baptized unto John's baptism. And he did this using the Jewish custom of laying on of hands to depart knowledge.
The only time I know of, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that the use of laying on of hands was used to depart a spirit was by Moses who departed a portion of his own spirit and to those he laid his hands upon to ordain. Even with this Moses transferred knowledge along with his spirit.

JB

[Chris]

I'm going to discuss your post in reverse order Chris.

Sounds good to me...

19 Saying , Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
I take it that it reads different in your Bible Chris

Sounds clearly that after Simon believed in the preaching of the gospel that he felt overwhelmed to help in bringing about the holy Spirit to others to me...which Bible phrases that differently?

First of all I inserted the question of Satan in my post to be discussed. Second, if you think that the discussion of Satan's belief is fantasy do you also believe that the Scriptures that address this are fantasy? And whoever said that this discussion would lead to" the Devil made me do it", as you put it?

Scripture does not teach it in the manner you presented it. (false doctrine)

1) What Satan believes is discussed in both the Old and New Testament. The book of Job we find but the devil acknowledges that he does not have authority or power over those who God protects.

In any case God gave Satan leave to do what he wanted with Job but denied Satan the right to kill him.

2) Yet in Matthew 4 we find Satan confronting Jesus not as God but only as another created being. Satan honestly believes Jesus to be the Messiah but fails to believe or understand that Christ was in fact God. If Satan would have known that he was tempting God he would've known that he could not succeed. Again I refer you back to Job.

Only proves that Satan is not above error.

3) The real proof that Satan's belief did not include the belief in the Trinity is evident in the fact that Satan entered Judas with the conspiracy to have Christ put to death. Satan knows that no cross, no nail nor spear could bring death to God, yet he thought he could kill Christ.

Wrong, Satan tried to overtake Peter to prevent Christ from getting to the cross Matthew 16:21-23.

Jesus Predicts His Death

21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

 22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

 23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

I hope that I'm wrong but it appears that you believe Peter was given the authority to baptize with the Holy Ghost. This of course would be contrary to the teachings of John the Baptist. As you would obviously know the laying on of hands is a Jewish custom used to depart knowledge from one to the other.

Wrong, John the baptist Baptized with water for the removal of sin, wher the Holy Spirit Baptizes one unto salvation.

Mathew 16:19

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

You are misinformed concerning the keys to God's kingdom being the ability to baptize with the Holy Spirit. The New Testament is clear that the keys to the kingdom of God is the Gospel taught by Christ. This is the key that was given to Peter that he passed on to his disciples and to those that Simon witnessed when Peter laid his hands upon. The Gospel is the sword of the Holy Ghost (ephesians 6:17), it convicts, teaches, and effectively calls the elect. (john 6)
In Acts 2 there was no laying on of hands and there was no need to teach those present of the Gospel. Those who receive the Holy Ghost in acts 2 had already received the Gospel.

Wrong, Peter promises the baptism of the Holy Spirit to the Jews in Acts 2.

TitleBox

37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

 40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

In Acts 10:41-48 again there was no laying on of hands and a Holy Ghost was administered solely from hearing the gospel from Peter.
In Acts 9 did Paul also have the KEYS to the Kingdom? He did have the knowledge of the Gospel and he departed that and to those that were baptized unto John's baptism. And he did this using the Jewish custom of laying on of hands to depart knowledge.
The only time I know of, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that the use of laying on of hands was used to depart a spirit was by Moses who departed a portion of his own spirit and to those he laid his hands upon to ordain. Even with this Moses transferred knowledge along with his spirit.

JB

And that knowledge would be the work of the Holy Spirit which I reiterate in verse 44: "44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.".

Thus the Jews were astonished that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit also came upon the Gentiles.

gentile Salvation Established

Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Peter fulfills Christ promise that he would indeed open the doors of the Church so that they could receive the Holy Spirit.

IC
CJ

[JB Horn]

Sounds good to me...


Sounds clearly that after Simon believed in the preaching of the gospel that he felt overwhelmed to help in bringing about the holy Spirit to others to me...which Bible phrases that differently?

Scripture does not teach it in the manner you presented it. (false doctrine)
In any case God gave Satan leave to do what he wanted with Job but denied Satan the right to kill him.

Only proves that Satan is not above error.

Wrong, Satan tried to overtake Peter to prevent Christ from getting to the cross Matthew 16:21-23.

Jesus Predicts His Death

21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

 22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

 23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Wrong, John the baptist Baptized with water for the removal of sin, wher the Holy Spirit Baptizes one unto salvation.

Mathew 16:19

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Wrong, Peter promises the baptism of the Holy Spirit to the Jews in Acts 2.

TitleBox

37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

 40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

And that knowledge would be the work of the Holy Spirit which I reiterate in verse 44: "44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.".

Thus the Jews were astonished that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit also came upon the Gentiles.

gentile Salvation Established

Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Peter fulfills Christ promise that he would indeed open the doors of the Church so that they could receive the Holy Spirit.

IC
CJ

You fail to refute or even understand my argument CJ.

IHS
JB

[Chris]

You fail to refute or even understand my argument CJ.

IHS
JB

Exactly my point, because there is no doctrine of Satan to be found in Acts:8. 
There was nothing to refute, but much to reveal  .

In Christ
C.J.

[admin]

Again I have receive a reply from ddt2318 via e-mail for this post, I don't quite understand why this is not being posted by her on the board but here you are.

email from ddt2318

I'm not entirely sure what is being said by this email, but I'd like to share some things about baptism.  As we know, there is water baptism - the physical witness of what has happened to us spiritually when we received Jesus. I hope you agree that this baptism, although God tells us to do this, is not necessary for our actual salvation.

The "main" baptism is our baptism into the Body of Christ, of course, which is when the Holy Spirit puts us into the Body when we receive Jesus ("by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body" - 1 Corinthians 12:13).  The baptism with the Holy Spirit comes after one is baptized into the Body (or born again).  You know the passage about new wine in the new wine bottle ()?  The spirit of Christ we receive at the new birth is the new bottle.  Once we receive him, we are saved, seated in heaven.  After that, though, God wants us to go on and receive the Holy Spirit (baptism w/the Spirit) by asking for Him.  He comes into the new bottle, the spirit of Christ, as the new wine. 

Romans 8 delineates the Spirit of Christ/Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) stating we aren't his unless we have the Spirit of Christ, but that if we receive the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) he will quicken or mortal bodies.

I would love to know your thoughts on this, especially that you know how secure our salvation is.

Love in Christ,
Diane

[Biblebuf]

Again I have receive a reply from ddt2318 via e-mail for this post, I don't quite understand why this is not being posted by her on the board but here you are.

email from ddt2318

I'm not entirely sure what is being said by this email, but I'd like to share some things about baptism.  As we know, there is water baptism - the physical witness of what has happened to us spiritually when we received Jesus. I hope you agree that this baptism, although God tells us to do this, is not necessary for our actual salvation.

The "main" baptism is our baptism into the Body of Christ, of course, which is when the Holy Spirit puts us into the Body when we receive Jesus ("by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body" - 1 Corinthians 12:13).  The baptism with the Holy Spirit comes after one is baptized into the Body (or born again).  You know the passage about new wine in the new wine bottle ()?  The spirit of Christ we receive at the new birth is the new bottle.  Once we receive him, we are saved, seated in heaven.  After that, though, God wants us to go on and receive the Holy Spirit (baptism w/the Spirit) by asking for Him.  He comes into the new bottle, the spirit of Christ, as the new wine. 

Romans 8 delineates the Spirit of Christ/Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) stating we aren't his unless we have the Spirit of Christ, but that if we receive the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) he will quicken or mortal bodies.

I would love to know your thoughts on this, especially that you know how secure our salvation is.

Love in Christ,
Diane

Hi ddt2318 I think we are in agreement.

Salvation is impossible without the Holy Ghost. Without the Holy Ghost there could be no calling to Christ as required in the Scriptures.
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

We are all baptized by the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand , that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal . 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom ; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit ; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles ; to another prophecy ; to another discerning of spirits ; to another divers kinds of tongues ; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will . 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Blessingd
BB

[Chris]

I think I see where she is going with this but I'm not sure she understands the parable of the old & new wine skins.  This one would serve it's purpose better in the "Those Left Behind" thread, I'll just touch on it briefly because I do intend on adding this to that thread as well.

The parable of the wine skins yet again drives home the point that The Church is a distinct entity on it's own.  As I had demonstrated in the other thread Israel is the wife of Jehovah and the Church is the Bride of Christ.  Even in the following passages leading up to the parable of the wine skins Christ refers to Himself as the Bridegroom.

A Bridegroom is yet to be married thus clarifying that Christ does not refer to Israel as His wife as the Old Testament Prophets wrote of Israel the wife of Jehovah.

Fasting

Luke 5:29-35

 29 And Levi made him a great feast in his house: and there was a great multitude of publicans and of others that were sitting at meat with them.

 30 And the Pharisees and their scribes murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with the publicans and sinners?

 31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick.

 32 I am not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.

 33 And they said unto him, The disciples of John fast often, and make supplications; likewise also the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink.

34 And Jesus said unto them, Can ye make the sons of the bride-chamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?
 35 But the days will come; and when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, then will they fast in those days.

The Parable

Luke 5:36-39
 36 And he spake also a parable unto them: No man rendeth a piece from a new garment and putteth it upon an old garment; else he will rend the new, and also the piece from the new will not agree with the old.

 37 And no man putteth new wine into old wine-skins; else the new wine will burst the skins, and itself will be spilled, and the skins will perish.

 38 But new wine must be put into fresh wine-skins.

 39 And no man having drunk old wine desireth new; for he saith, The old is good.

So verse 39 teaches us that those of the old ways will not follow the new way.  For the Church shall put new clothes with the new and new wine with the new.  The skins being His Flesh and the New Wine His blood, the New Covenant.  Thus Israel shall continue in their old ways following The Law which even to this day they still follow the Torah and Tanach (The Old Skin and Wine) but "The Church" will be an entirely New Man composed of some Jews & Gentiles.

However, the Jews who will be saved with the Church will not be Israel for Israel is of The Old and The Old is Good according to their beliefs in Judaism.

Israel will not be Baptized prior to the Tribulation.

I.C.
C.J.